You not seeing Kabalistic ideas is because you expect kabalistic ideas to be super esoteric sounding. Really kabalah is nothing more than the guide to get close to Hashem. Since it is very nuanced, it can get really, really complicated and those details are the fine print. But the Ramchal had the uncanny abiltiy to simplify things. There is not a word that is not found in his other more kabalistic seforim
I guess that's possible, but you'd have to assume that the Ramchal himself wasn't being forthright when he wrote that the work contained only content obvious to all. Not to mention that he was comfortable breaking the bans on teaching kabbala. But I'd also have to see some practical examples of content that has no source in Tanach or Chazal.
Well, are there things in there that are not obvious to all? Again, even though Kabbalah as a limud is deep and really hard to grasp, its tenets are the tenets of Judaism and have always been. That Hashem is good and that he wants us to get schar and that we need to break free from our inclinations and go through those Middos is part of Niglah. But he did it in a way that covered just how deep his work really goes, which was absolute genius. It doesn't violate the ban because it is Toras Niglah, that's all. But I totally get your point.
You're correct, of course, that there is a lot of overlap. But there are also significant elements of the Ari's interpretation of kabbala that are not historical. R' Chaim Vital himself wrote (בהקדמתו לספר עץ חיים) that the Ari taught things that were not even known to Moshe Rabbeinu. The concept of Adam Kadmon, for instance, is completely new. And, as I've written elsewhere (https://marbitz.com/home/rabbi-s-r-hirsch/finding-tradition-in-the-modern-torah-world/between-frankfurt-and-tzfas/), the idea of using mitzvos for personal/cosmic gain (i.e., the theurgic impulse R' Hirsch rejected) is, as far as I can tell, central to a great deal of the Tzfas school.
Can you give me an example of a uniquely-kabbalistic concept that's hidden in Mesilas Yesharim?
The very fact that Hashem created the world to be meitiv is ultimately a kabbalistic concept. It's not just overlap, it is the same thing in different terms. The kabalisitic term for that would be Keser. Using the kabalisitc term has tremendous value to dicoveer the nuances of this midah, far beyond the fact that it is 'good,' such as that it is above the entire Komah of the binyan haguf of Hashem's hanhagos. and that it partly relates to the higher midah it comes from etc.
Take, for example, the kabbalistic idea of Mayim Duchrin and Mayim Nukvin. While it is part the essence of creation and has meaning far beyond my layman understanding, simply the idea is that as we are mevatel ourselves, a piece of our 'gashmi' is replaced by 'ruchni' and we become more ruchni. This is imagined by the 'lower waters' going up, i.e., us going up, and Hashem 'meeting' us down here, the Mayim Duchrin coming down and becoming part of this world. This is simply about our connection with Hashem. The mesilas yesharim will never use these kabalisitc terms and words which describe the essence of the briah, again, in ways we barely understand, but in truth, these terms are just the depths of that concept expressed in the MY (similar to a magnets mechanisms being described more sharply with Maxwell's mathematics, l'havdil). The idea of 'water' and 'zachar' and 'nekeiva' in the each adds more and more meaning to the said idea.
The idea of Adam Kadmon also is about what conceptions of Hashem we can connect with. There is nothing uniquely 'kabbalistic' about any of these things except for the depths of the terms which allow us to understand that same simpler concept on a way deeper level. Meaning, as we understand more and more about God's relationship with us and the world, all the levels and complications can be expressed deeper and deeper through the usage of the kabbalistic terms. Us simpletons (I speak for myself) don't yet have the understanding of Hashem in which all of those vocabularies will mean anything. The Chochma comes along with the experience of yiraas Shamayim that allows us to connect, and as we grow in the latter, we can then begin to understand the terminology of the former.
Tzaddikim know what to strive for in this life. This is the ultimate desired outcome of one's life, ergo it's purpose. Ramchal didn't make it up from the thin air.
You not seeing Kabalistic ideas is because you expect kabalistic ideas to be super esoteric sounding. Really kabalah is nothing more than the guide to get close to Hashem. Since it is very nuanced, it can get really, really complicated and those details are the fine print. But the Ramchal had the uncanny abiltiy to simplify things. There is not a word that is not found in his other more kabalistic seforim
I guess that's possible, but you'd have to assume that the Ramchal himself wasn't being forthright when he wrote that the work contained only content obvious to all. Not to mention that he was comfortable breaking the bans on teaching kabbala. But I'd also have to see some practical examples of content that has no source in Tanach or Chazal.
Well, are there things in there that are not obvious to all? Again, even though Kabbalah as a limud is deep and really hard to grasp, its tenets are the tenets of Judaism and have always been. That Hashem is good and that he wants us to get schar and that we need to break free from our inclinations and go through those Middos is part of Niglah. But he did it in a way that covered just how deep his work really goes, which was absolute genius. It doesn't violate the ban because it is Toras Niglah, that's all. But I totally get your point.
You're correct, of course, that there is a lot of overlap. But there are also significant elements of the Ari's interpretation of kabbala that are not historical. R' Chaim Vital himself wrote (בהקדמתו לספר עץ חיים) that the Ari taught things that were not even known to Moshe Rabbeinu. The concept of Adam Kadmon, for instance, is completely new. And, as I've written elsewhere (https://marbitz.com/home/rabbi-s-r-hirsch/finding-tradition-in-the-modern-torah-world/between-frankfurt-and-tzfas/), the idea of using mitzvos for personal/cosmic gain (i.e., the theurgic impulse R' Hirsch rejected) is, as far as I can tell, central to a great deal of the Tzfas school.
Can you give me an example of a uniquely-kabbalistic concept that's hidden in Mesilas Yesharim?
Boruch
I'll probably have to reads through your linked article when I get a chance to fully get what you mean, looking forward! We'll continue then...
Sounds perfect. Have a great שבת!
The very fact that Hashem created the world to be meitiv is ultimately a kabbalistic concept. It's not just overlap, it is the same thing in different terms. The kabalisitic term for that would be Keser. Using the kabalisitc term has tremendous value to dicoveer the nuances of this midah, far beyond the fact that it is 'good,' such as that it is above the entire Komah of the binyan haguf of Hashem's hanhagos. and that it partly relates to the higher midah it comes from etc.
Take, for example, the kabbalistic idea of Mayim Duchrin and Mayim Nukvin. While it is part the essence of creation and has meaning far beyond my layman understanding, simply the idea is that as we are mevatel ourselves, a piece of our 'gashmi' is replaced by 'ruchni' and we become more ruchni. This is imagined by the 'lower waters' going up, i.e., us going up, and Hashem 'meeting' us down here, the Mayim Duchrin coming down and becoming part of this world. This is simply about our connection with Hashem. The mesilas yesharim will never use these kabalisitc terms and words which describe the essence of the briah, again, in ways we barely understand, but in truth, these terms are just the depths of that concept expressed in the MY (similar to a magnets mechanisms being described more sharply with Maxwell's mathematics, l'havdil). The idea of 'water' and 'zachar' and 'nekeiva' in the each adds more and more meaning to the said idea.
The idea of Adam Kadmon also is about what conceptions of Hashem we can connect with. There is nothing uniquely 'kabbalistic' about any of these things except for the depths of the terms which allow us to understand that same simpler concept on a way deeper level. Meaning, as we understand more and more about God's relationship with us and the world, all the levels and complications can be expressed deeper and deeper through the usage of the kabbalistic terms. Us simpletons (I speak for myself) don't yet have the understanding of Hashem in which all of those vocabularies will mean anything. The Chochma comes along with the experience of yiraas Shamayim that allows us to connect, and as we grow in the latter, we can then begin to understand the terminology of the former.
I fear I'm not being at all clear...
'But I certainly can’t imagine where it could be found in Chazal'. Many had asked this question, but the source seems quite obvious:
צדיקים יושבים ועטרותיהם בראשיהם ונהנין מזיו השכינה.
Y. Leibowitz
That source doesn't suggest that it's man's *purpose* to get this pleasure, but that it's a reward tzadikim can expect.
Tzaddikim know what to strive for in this life. This is the ultimate desired outcome of one's life, ergo it's purpose. Ramchal didn't make it up from the thin air.
On the contrary: אל תהיו בעבדים המשמשים את רבם לקבל פרס...