The obvious Chareidi answer is that in the magical world of Moshoach, where the bais hamikdash descends from the sky built from tears and the para aduma and the chilazon are doing a kazatzka in the azara, we will all go to Moshoach who will pasken all our shaylos and do our nikkur for us.
I think Ash is right about this, and the author was hinting at this broader idea that we have our doable parts but we have not as a society invested in it. The closest it gets is the Temple Institute folks, who are largely written off as extremist weirdos.
Actually I'm writing on this topic at this very moment because I think it's a worthy topic to go into.
For comment's sake, we'll say anyone who isn't actively doing the things mechanically and functionally relative to the Temple and so on. Limud for limud's sake doesn't count here. I am referring to people like Temple Institute folks who have sat with a knife to get ready for the mass slaughter. Leviim who learn to sing. People who breed cattle for the Parah Adumah. People who learn architecture and engineering with the express purpose of one day being on the team that builds the building.
Those kind of people are the express minority even among the DL world (many in my circles seem to believe in the woowoo magic falling Temple idea).
As you said, charedim (who are the majority of religious Jews), also have an issue with it.
So almost nobody is doing the practical steps....and in private they'd probably tell you the Temple Institute folks doing those things are extremist and need to stop forcing the hand of God.
First we need to remove the Arabs from the temple mount. This is a slow process. Thankfully we are making progress there. Jews regularly pray on the temple mount without arrest. It's not terribly difficult to operate on animals. I personally can remove the hippocampus from a 30 day old mouse brain without difficulty. It took me maybe 50 mice to learn the skill, but I don't know why nikkur would be the most difficult thing. As to your worries about thousands of Jews running around with knives, the reintroduction of karbonos will likely be a gradual process. Once we have a government that allows us to bring the Korban Pesach, for which the beis hamikdash is not required, small groups will start doing it. Eventually all of Israel will join. This is not an extremist position, Harav Goren, a very mainstream Rabbi attempted to bring a Korban Pesach in 1968 and would have had he not been stopped by the authorities.
The only reason almost no one in North America does full nikkur is because the time and costs involved make it more expensive than giving up the profits on the hindquarters. I have no first-hand experience, but my understanding is that making sure you pull the full גיד without breaking it and losing a portion within surrounding tissue can be delicate and time-consuming.
The fact that you're willing to share your expertise with the rest of us is excellent, but I'm not sure there will be enough people like you who'll be available to teach on the scale we'll need.
And I'm not sure we'll have ramp-up time: The Gemara in Taanis (17a) suggests that there won't be time for a kohen to get a haircut or sober up from a reviis of wine before the mikdash is built and operational.
The biggest problem is that nobody understands the mikdash in Yechezkel, so much the verses leave unspoken, there is no Mesorah, so we need Eliyahu either way.
We might need Eliyahu for specific details like the exact מקום מזבח העולה or to decide debates like מליחת בשר קרבן פסח, but we have no business relying on Eliyahu for practical skills that are well within our capacity. And we're asking for trouble if we don't even prepare for logistics issues that are easy to predict.
Here is a more fundamental question. How is it possible to bring a large number of korbanos pesachs.
I will start with listing a set of facts based on the Mishnayon/Gemaras in Pesachim and other places:
All times listed in the Gemara are based on a 12 hour day 6 to 6 (שעות זמניות)
The first Mishna in the 5th perek of Pesachim (48a) states that on Erev Pesach they would start bringing the תמיד של בין הערבים at 1:30PM (7.5 hours) and finish at 2:30PM (8.5)
They started bringing the Korban Pesachs only after they finished with the Tamid, meaning they only started at 2:30PM
Korbanos can only be brought until sunset which is 6PM (12 hours)
The time alloted to bring all of the Korban Pesachs was 3.5 hours (2:30 PM until 6PM)
The Mishna states that the Korban Pesach is brought in 3 groups
The Gemara (Pesachim 64) states that they said Hallel while they were bringing the Korban pesachs and they never repeated Hallel more then 2 times
The animals were suspended and flayed in the azara
King Aggrippas counted the Korban Pesachs one year and came up with 1.2 million
The Azara in the Beis Hamikdash was 135x187 Amos
The entrance into the Azara was 10 Amos wide
According to the Gemara they brought 1.2 million korbanos one year. That means that 1.2 million people needed to go into the Azarah with their sheep to sacrifice it. Lets do the math now.
3.5 hours is 210 minutes, 12600 seconds
That is 95 korbanos per second, 5714 per minute. Note: To bring the Korban means to slaughter it, collect the blood, sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach, etc.
The size of the Azara is approximately 25,000 square Amos
Assuming a large Amah (2 feet) that is 50,000 square feet, Note: part of the azarah was the Kodesh Hakodashim which can not be entered and there are also the Keilim
A loose crowd, one where each person is an arm's length from the body of his or her nearest neighbors, needs 10 square feet per person. A more tightly packed crowd fills 4.5 square feet per person. A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density would get about 2.5 square feet per person.
Based on the above (5)
Loose crowd - the maximum number of people is 5000, 3 groups would only get us to 15,000 people, we are 1.185 million people short
A more tightly packed crowd - the maximum number of people is 11,111 3 groups would only get us to 33,333 people, we are 1.167 million people short
A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density - the maximum number of people is 20,000 3 groups would only get us to 60,000 people, we are 1.14 million people short
The entrance to the Azarah is 20 feet wide, meaning at most 8 can come in simultaneously. For 1.2 million to come in would require 150,000 rows of 8. This would require 12 rows to enter a second
All the people who come in need to go out the same entrance
Even if we radically reduce the number of korbanos to 100,000 the numbers are still ridiculous
That is 8 korbanos per second, 476 per minute. Note: To bring the Korban means to slaughter it, collect the blood, sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach
Based on the crowd numbers above (5)
Loose crowd - the maximum number of people is 5000, 3 groups would only get us to 15,000 people, we are 85,000 people short
A more tightly packed crowd - the maximum number of people is 11,111 3 groups would only get us to 33,333 people, we are 67,000 people short
A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density - the maximum number of people is 20,000 3 groups would only get us to 60,000 people, we are 40,000 people short
The entrance to the Azarah is 20 feet wide, meaning at most 8 can come in simultaneously. For 1.2 million to come in would require 150,000 rows of 8. This would require 12 rows to enter a second
All the people who come in need to go out the same entrance
It's such a silly question, because what's his point? That they didn't actually bring the Korban Pesach in the times of the Mishnah? We knew the nonbelievers are not that bright, but this is a whole new level of stupid.
Really? You tell me how many animals would need to be processed to get millions of olive size pieces of meat. You also have to recognize that people made groups and not every group was that large. It’s tens of thousands of animals at least. That doesn’t work.
You comment about numbers in the Gemara is also questionable. This is not a number thrown out of nowhere. The Gemara tells us that they actually counted the number of kidneys.
Let’s think about the korban pesach for a minute. To eat from a particular korban you need to be part of the group. There was no social media to facilitate making groups. How many people did the average person know. Very few. So groups would have been small which means lots of animals. The Korban pesach was a one year old lamb which is not a very big animal either.
The obvious Chareidi answer is that in the magical world of Moshoach, where the bais hamikdash descends from the sky built from tears and the para aduma and the chilazon are doing a kazatzka in the azara, we will all go to Moshoach who will pasken all our shaylos and do our nikkur for us.
First thing we have to get rid of the soldiers stopping us from building a mizbeach.
I think Ash is right about this, and the author was hinting at this broader idea that we have our doable parts but we have not as a society invested in it. The closest it gets is the Temple Institute folks, who are largely written off as extremist weirdos.
>Which society
Actually I'm writing on this topic at this very moment because I think it's a worthy topic to go into.
For comment's sake, we'll say anyone who isn't actively doing the things mechanically and functionally relative to the Temple and so on. Limud for limud's sake doesn't count here. I am referring to people like Temple Institute folks who have sat with a knife to get ready for the mass slaughter. Leviim who learn to sing. People who breed cattle for the Parah Adumah. People who learn architecture and engineering with the express purpose of one day being on the team that builds the building.
Those kind of people are the express minority even among the DL world (many in my circles seem to believe in the woowoo magic falling Temple idea).
As you said, charedim (who are the majority of religious Jews), also have an issue with it.
So almost nobody is doing the practical steps....and in private they'd probably tell you the Temple Institute folks doing those things are extremist and need to stop forcing the hand of God.
Thanks for the idea. I'll try to incorporate something on charedim/army service too. Looking forward to your own version when it comes out.
Rashi is easily understandable as it descending after we do our part to match what was built - a divine finishing.
The sarcasm wasn't directed at Rashi chas veshalom but at the general approach of doing nothing .
First we need to remove the Arabs from the temple mount. This is a slow process. Thankfully we are making progress there. Jews regularly pray on the temple mount without arrest. It's not terribly difficult to operate on animals. I personally can remove the hippocampus from a 30 day old mouse brain without difficulty. It took me maybe 50 mice to learn the skill, but I don't know why nikkur would be the most difficult thing. As to your worries about thousands of Jews running around with knives, the reintroduction of karbonos will likely be a gradual process. Once we have a government that allows us to bring the Korban Pesach, for which the beis hamikdash is not required, small groups will start doing it. Eventually all of Israel will join. This is not an extremist position, Harav Goren, a very mainstream Rabbi attempted to bring a Korban Pesach in 1968 and would have had he not been stopped by the authorities.
The only reason almost no one in North America does full nikkur is because the time and costs involved make it more expensive than giving up the profits on the hindquarters. I have no first-hand experience, but my understanding is that making sure you pull the full גיד without breaking it and losing a portion within surrounding tissue can be delicate and time-consuming.
The fact that you're willing to share your expertise with the rest of us is excellent, but I'm not sure there will be enough people like you who'll be available to teach on the scale we'll need.
And I'm not sure we'll have ramp-up time: The Gemara in Taanis (17a) suggests that there won't be time for a kohen to get a haircut or sober up from a reviis of wine before the mikdash is built and operational.
What do you do professionally, by the way?
Edit: I should have said operating on dead animals. Intestines are extremely easy to identify. I volunteer to teach animal anatomy.
The biggest problem is that nobody understands the mikdash in Yechezkel, so much the verses leave unspoken, there is no Mesorah, so we need Eliyahu either way.
We might need Eliyahu for specific details like the exact מקום מזבח העולה or to decide debates like מליחת בשר קרבן פסח, but we have no business relying on Eliyahu for practical skills that are well within our capacity. And we're asking for trouble if we don't even prepare for logistics issues that are easy to predict.
Just linking this here:
https://daastorah.substack.com/p/first-time-in-2000-years-korban-brought
Here is a more fundamental question. How is it possible to bring a large number of korbanos pesachs.
I will start with listing a set of facts based on the Mishnayon/Gemaras in Pesachim and other places:
All times listed in the Gemara are based on a 12 hour day 6 to 6 (שעות זמניות)
The first Mishna in the 5th perek of Pesachim (48a) states that on Erev Pesach they would start bringing the תמיד של בין הערבים at 1:30PM (7.5 hours) and finish at 2:30PM (8.5)
They started bringing the Korban Pesachs only after they finished with the Tamid, meaning they only started at 2:30PM
Korbanos can only be brought until sunset which is 6PM (12 hours)
The time alloted to bring all of the Korban Pesachs was 3.5 hours (2:30 PM until 6PM)
The Mishna states that the Korban Pesach is brought in 3 groups
The Gemara (Pesachim 64) states that they said Hallel while they were bringing the Korban pesachs and they never repeated Hallel more then 2 times
The animals were suspended and flayed in the azara
King Aggrippas counted the Korban Pesachs one year and came up with 1.2 million
The Azara in the Beis Hamikdash was 135x187 Amos
The entrance into the Azara was 10 Amos wide
According to the Gemara they brought 1.2 million korbanos one year. That means that 1.2 million people needed to go into the Azarah with their sheep to sacrifice it. Lets do the math now.
3.5 hours is 210 minutes, 12600 seconds
That is 95 korbanos per second, 5714 per minute. Note: To bring the Korban means to slaughter it, collect the blood, sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach, etc.
The size of the Azara is approximately 25,000 square Amos
Assuming a large Amah (2 feet) that is 50,000 square feet, Note: part of the azarah was the Kodesh Hakodashim which can not be entered and there are also the Keilim
A loose crowd, one where each person is an arm's length from the body of his or her nearest neighbors, needs 10 square feet per person. A more tightly packed crowd fills 4.5 square feet per person. A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density would get about 2.5 square feet per person.
Based on the above (5)
Loose crowd - the maximum number of people is 5000, 3 groups would only get us to 15,000 people, we are 1.185 million people short
A more tightly packed crowd - the maximum number of people is 11,111 3 groups would only get us to 33,333 people, we are 1.167 million people short
A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density - the maximum number of people is 20,000 3 groups would only get us to 60,000 people, we are 1.14 million people short
The entrance to the Azarah is 20 feet wide, meaning at most 8 can come in simultaneously. For 1.2 million to come in would require 150,000 rows of 8. This would require 12 rows to enter a second
All the people who come in need to go out the same entrance
Even if we radically reduce the number of korbanos to 100,000 the numbers are still ridiculous
That is 8 korbanos per second, 476 per minute. Note: To bring the Korban means to slaughter it, collect the blood, sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach
Based on the crowd numbers above (5)
Loose crowd - the maximum number of people is 5000, 3 groups would only get us to 15,000 people, we are 85,000 people short
A more tightly packed crowd - the maximum number of people is 11,111 3 groups would only get us to 33,333 people, we are 67,000 people short
A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density - the maximum number of people is 20,000 3 groups would only get us to 60,000 people, we are 40,000 people short
The entrance to the Azarah is 20 feet wide, meaning at most 8 can come in simultaneously. For 1.2 million to come in would require 150,000 rows of 8. This would require 12 rows to enter a second
All the people who come in need to go out the same entrance
No one needs more than an olive size piece of meat. It is very doable.
Numbers in the gemara are meaningless.
It's such a silly question, because what's his point? That they didn't actually bring the Korban Pesach in the times of the Mishnah? We knew the nonbelievers are not that bright, but this is a whole new level of stupid.
Have you seen his blog?
A Jew with Stupid Questions? I actually have a post on it which I'm deciding whether or not its too mean to drop.
https://ajewwithquestions.blogspot.com/2017/11/how-many-jews-were-slaves-in-egypt.html
This is probably the dumbest question.
Really? You tell me how many animals would need to be processed to get millions of olive size pieces of meat. You also have to recognize that people made groups and not every group was that large. It’s tens of thousands of animals at least. That doesn’t work.
You comment about numbers in the Gemara is also questionable. This is not a number thrown out of nowhere. The Gemara tells us that they actually counted the number of kidneys.
Let’s think about the korban pesach for a minute. To eat from a particular korban you need to be part of the group. There was no social media to facilitate making groups. How many people did the average person know. Very few. So groups would have been small which means lots of animals. The Korban pesach was a one year old lamb which is not a very big animal either.