Regarding the sorcerers not being a “Torah source”, if it’s in the Torah it’s a Torah source. They also didn’t speak Biblical Hebrew-they might have said something similar to that but if it’s written in the Torah-it’s a trusted source.
Regarding the plagues-I’ll give you an example: how many plagues was COVID ? It was one plague but had a major impact on every sector-There were 10 plagues in Egypt and 10 at the sea, what’s being counted is the impact it had, the magnitude of each plague.
If you're suggesting that every word of Torah contains authoritative Torah positions we can and should apply elsewhere, then I'm not sure I agree. After all, that would, for instance, mean that Paro's words "נרפים אתם" represent a divinely-authorized Torah position and we're required by Torah law to believe that Jews are lazy. That just doesn't sit well with me.
I prefer to believe that the Torah simply recorded (translations of) the words those sorcerers said for the purpose of context.
> Regarding the plagues-I’ll give you an example...
That's fine. But my question was about the specificity. Since we have no idea what they were, what value is there in being told there were 50 or 200 or 250 of them?
Regarding the Torah being a Torah source-I don’t think pharaoh said those words, he didn’t speak Hebrew. The Torah can paraphrase what other people said to teach a lesson/reveal identity. Every word in the Torah is divine, the people who say them might not be, but if the Torah constructs/interprets an event a certain way using certain language-it’s Torah.
We try to maximize the amount of makos against the Egyptians because hashem says that the makos he brought against Egypt won’t be brought against us. So by trying to maximize their punishment, we’re trying to minimize our own.
So you somehow know that the chartumim's "אצבע אלקים" was a case were the Torah "constructs/interprets an event" but Paro's "נרפים אתם" was just a "paraphrase". How do you know that to be true?
> "We try to maximize..."
That sounds a lot like the חובת הדורש idea of the מהריץ חיות which posits that darshonim have license to interpret Torah stories to further our sense of the events even though we have no textual or masoretic evidence to support it. That's a bit of a controversial idea.
They’re both paraphrased….again, they didn’t speak Hebrew so to have said that verbatim doesn’t make sense. Hashem determines what is in the Torah and if he wants to include pharaohs insults and the language-them its divine.
Seems to be tannaim making the drashot, which is part of the mesorah. Not everything in the Torah sh’baal pe is in the Torah….
Even if we are at a complete loss to know what those numbers might mean, the dominant trend of our age seems to demand that we regard any non-literal interpretation of either תורה שבכתב or תורה שבעל פה with extreme suspicion!
Regarding the sorcerers not being a “Torah source”, if it’s in the Torah it’s a Torah source. They also didn’t speak Biblical Hebrew-they might have said something similar to that but if it’s written in the Torah-it’s a trusted source.
Regarding the plagues-I’ll give you an example: how many plagues was COVID ? It was one plague but had a major impact on every sector-There were 10 plagues in Egypt and 10 at the sea, what’s being counted is the impact it had, the magnitude of each plague.
> If it’s in the Torah it’s a Torah source.
If you're suggesting that every word of Torah contains authoritative Torah positions we can and should apply elsewhere, then I'm not sure I agree. After all, that would, for instance, mean that Paro's words "נרפים אתם" represent a divinely-authorized Torah position and we're required by Torah law to believe that Jews are lazy. That just doesn't sit well with me.
I prefer to believe that the Torah simply recorded (translations of) the words those sorcerers said for the purpose of context.
> Regarding the plagues-I’ll give you an example...
That's fine. But my question was about the specificity. Since we have no idea what they were, what value is there in being told there were 50 or 200 or 250 of them?
Regarding the Torah being a Torah source-I don’t think pharaoh said those words, he didn’t speak Hebrew. The Torah can paraphrase what other people said to teach a lesson/reveal identity. Every word in the Torah is divine, the people who say them might not be, but if the Torah constructs/interprets an event a certain way using certain language-it’s Torah.
We try to maximize the amount of makos against the Egyptians because hashem says that the makos he brought against Egypt won’t be brought against us. So by trying to maximize their punishment, we’re trying to minimize our own.
So you somehow know that the chartumim's "אצבע אלקים" was a case were the Torah "constructs/interprets an event" but Paro's "נרפים אתם" was just a "paraphrase". How do you know that to be true?
> "We try to maximize..."
That sounds a lot like the חובת הדורש idea of the מהריץ חיות which posits that darshonim have license to interpret Torah stories to further our sense of the events even though we have no textual or masoretic evidence to support it. That's a bit of a controversial idea.
They’re both paraphrased….again, they didn’t speak Hebrew so to have said that verbatim doesn’t make sense. Hashem determines what is in the Torah and if he wants to include pharaohs insults and the language-them its divine.
Seems to be tannaim making the drashot, which is part of the mesorah. Not everything in the Torah sh’baal pe is in the Torah….
Even if we are at a complete loss to know what those numbers might mean, the dominant trend of our age seems to demand that we regard any non-literal interpretation of either תורה שבכתב or תורה שבעל פה with extreme suspicion!
I'm still convinced that one of the torments faced by the Mitzriim was that they were forced to eat Pesach macaroons before they drowned. :)