As a kind of follow up to my recent post on orphaned halachos, here’s another example of - if not an explicit halacha - a clear Torah-rooted social value that’s now widely ignored.
Most people don’t realize is the enormous amount amounts of indirect cost. School buildings built by the local goverments or mifal
Hapyis. Shuls and schools and mens milkvas without water meters and with electricity covered by municipalities. Extra highly subsidized bus lines. Of course, the recent designation of many of their neighborhoods as 50% off zones for monthly rav kav passes. Busing for schools and events that are billed to the municipalities or the mot. Enormous programs of gift cards that are funded through various municipal or governmental program. Neighborhoods and infrastructure built just for them. Enormous black economies that are not investigated in these neighborhoods. And more.
(b) The root cause of the Israeli/Palestinian crisis is demographic and the charedim are really the only ones doing anything about. I think (and it seems Ben Gurion thought) that's worth an army exemption, and probably a few billion dollars.
(c) That said, it's hard to convince people of that anyways, and government payments to kollelim make no sense anyways. I think they are mostly cut now, and that should be extended forever.
(d) Charedim must be integrated into the economy, but level-headed people (including many nonreligious) realize that the army issue is making this impossible. Whatever you may believe morally, the fact is that the vast majority of charedim won't serve. It's not happening. I understand the emotional aspect, unfortunately, but rationally this craziness must stop. We must get to work on integrating charedim into the economy and harping on the draft makes this impossible.
Did the study include the massive benefit accrued by charedi volunteer organizations?
United Hatzalah alone provides economic benefit probably worth billions: They claim it's a 90 second response time for everyone (no discrimination) at no cost, for personnel or equipment.
That's just one of many charedi volunteer organizations.
In general, it's hard to measure charedi contributions with standard economic measurements because so much of their contribution is not done in the typical employer/employee fashion.
Neither. The primary point is that, once upon a time, the Torah sources mentioned in the post would weigh heavily in Jews' minds when they mapped out their plans for life. Planning to be perpetually dependent on "מתנת בשר ודם" is something I suspect would have horrified our ancestors.
As with many of my posts, I'm expressing my surprise at how many core beliefs, practices, and attitudes of contemporary Judaism don't have obvious internal origins.
When I first started horseriding (figure out for yourself which part of the beast I rode) somone asked me why horses? why of all animals do we choose to ride on the horse?
Because he lets.
As the gemara says, לאו עכברא גנב אלא חורא גנב .
I think the larger problem is that the welfare is admistered at the state level rather than the communal. This distance coupled with the state's admiministers identity as others allows taking without feeling like a nebach.
The Rambam also says that a person should always try to live in The Land Of Israel, even in a majority gentile city, than live outside The Land in a majority Jewish city, but everyone in Lakewood ignores that.
It's a result of living in a socialist, welfare state. It's very hard to argue that under a mandatory public health care system, going to the hospital when you are poor is taking gifts.
That's true. But you'd hope that an all-powerful industry devoted to teaching Torah at scale (i.e., the yeshiva world) would be capable of producing graduates who can distinguish between healthcare coverage and lifestyle entitlements.
I don't know how it works in Israel, but in the U.S. as I can see it one has to be wealthy (close to 300 k annually in Lakewood) or poor (to be eligible for government programs) to make it.
I, and many others, choose to be poor. My focus would be on raising a large family in a healthy Torah manner, rather than slaving my entire life paying taxes so others can live off of the government.
But outside Israel at least there are many wealthy Jews to balance it out (I think Lakewood mean income isn't lower than the national mean income when all factors are considered, and many of the wealthier American 'charedim' live out of Lakewood).
I do think the Diaspora charedim need to carry that over to Israel, both in terms of direct financial help (e.g. Keren Olam HaTorah) and in terms of teaching and enabling Israeli charedi to behave similar to Diaspora charedim.
I think it is beginning to happen. It starts as a tiny crawl, but eventually it will cause immense change.
I just looked at the mean income, and tried to adjust it for age (the Lakewood median income is high at middle age and low at every other age, and there are very few middle age adults in Lakewood), the fact that almost all non-Jews in Lakewood are low income (living in low income housing) and some other factors.
Ok, I just began reading it. But still, why did you focus only on families? I guess because you were focused on determining the financial health of frum families?
Another problem with these analyses is that they always count money spent on children as welfare to the parents, but never account for the potential economic contributions of the children themselves when they are older (and at least half of chareidim work, and the number is increasing). This penalizes communities with large families, making it look like they cost the system much more than they do.
I don't think that's true in this case, since we've already seen multiple generations of charedi children who grow up to be over represented among the unemployed and underemployed.
Barring disruptive changes, statistically, that's what this community is likely to produce.
Disruptive changes will happen. I think it's silly to think they won't, and this is one of the reasons why the report's extrapolations to the future are silly.
Change will certainly happen. But there's no way to know what it'll look like. And there's certainly no reason to use that as an excuse to abandon statistical trend analysis - which is a major foundation for economics research.
I've been hearing confident predictions about the imminent end of the kollel-for-all culture for at least 40 years now (I've even made a few myself). Every last one of them came up empty. From where I sit, the safest bet is still that the status quo rabbis and their aggressive followers will carry the day.
>I've been hearing confident predictions about the imminent end of the kollel-for-all culture for at least 40 years now (I've even made a few myself). Every last one of them came up empty.
Isn't that the greatest proof that change can happen?
The financial structure supporting the yeshiva world is under constant flux, only their values remain unchanging (though even that is far from true, but good enough for this conversation.)
That's not my point. My point is that when we look at a community with a large number of children, all else equal, that community will look like it costs much more than it does. Because we are not counting any potential contributions from these children, we are only looking at the cost side. It's a profoundly anti-Torah way of looking at things.
Also, statistically, the community has been increasing its share of male employment significantly up until the war.
I understand. But, in this case, all things are not equal: we already have strong evidence of statistical trends which show that charedi children cost more than non-charedi children. If 100 charedi households present the state with a monthly net loss of NIS 1,031,800 (100x10,318), then 1,000 charedi households will cost the state NIS 10,318,000 each month.
There's no economy of scale here: you can't make up your losses on volume.
Now if, miraculously, significant numbers of charedi men *do* start working and rising within the economy, then all bets are off. But right now there are enough A-list rabbis fiercely fighting against it to make that an unlikely outcome.
A better analysis would just count how much adults cost the state vs how much they contribute. I'm sure chareidim would still be net receivers, but by much less. We shouldn't include a "children penalty" in our economic analyses, especially if we are drawing religious implications from them.
There's really no miracle needed. Chareidi men went from around 30-35% employment in the early 2000s to over 50% recently. All that's required for this "miracle" is to stop harassing them about the draft.
This is also relevant to the statistic about the amount of spending per capita. Most charedim are under 20. How about looking at the spending per adult over 20?
I would suspect that the overwhelming majority of total spending is done by people over 20. Which 18 year old charedi has enough of his own money to even afford a phone plan? So the household spending metric pretty much perfectly covers adult spending.
Most people don’t realize is the enormous amount amounts of indirect cost. School buildings built by the local goverments or mifal
Hapyis. Shuls and schools and mens milkvas without water meters and with electricity covered by municipalities. Extra highly subsidized bus lines. Of course, the recent designation of many of their neighborhoods as 50% off zones for monthly rav kav passes. Busing for schools and events that are billed to the municipalities or the mot. Enormous programs of gift cards that are funded through various municipal or governmental program. Neighborhoods and infrastructure built just for them. Enormous black economies that are not investigated in these neighborhoods. And more.
I wrote a comment there https://newsletter.amitsegal.net/p/its-noon-in-israel-will-israel-be/comment/200644770
Specifically, I think:
(a) The extrapolation to the future is silly.
(b) The root cause of the Israeli/Palestinian crisis is demographic and the charedim are really the only ones doing anything about. I think (and it seems Ben Gurion thought) that's worth an army exemption, and probably a few billion dollars.
(c) That said, it's hard to convince people of that anyways, and government payments to kollelim make no sense anyways. I think they are mostly cut now, and that should be extended forever.
(d) Charedim must be integrated into the economy, but level-headed people (including many nonreligious) realize that the army issue is making this impossible. Whatever you may believe morally, the fact is that the vast majority of charedim won't serve. It's not happening. I understand the emotional aspect, unfortunately, but rationally this craziness must stop. We must get to work on integrating charedim into the economy and harping on the draft makes this impossible.
Did the study include the massive benefit accrued by charedi volunteer organizations?
United Hatzalah alone provides economic benefit probably worth billions: They claim it's a 90 second response time for everyone (no discrimination) at no cost, for personnel or equipment.
That's just one of many charedi volunteer organizations.
In general, it's hard to measure charedi contributions with standard economic measurements because so much of their contribution is not done in the typical employer/employee fashion.
I'm not sure what the point of this article is. That poor people are a drain on the budget in socialist democracies?
That chareidim in israel are poor?
Neither. The primary point is that, once upon a time, the Torah sources mentioned in the post would weigh heavily in Jews' minds when they mapped out their plans for life. Planning to be perpetually dependent on "מתנת בשר ודם" is something I suspect would have horrified our ancestors.
As with many of my posts, I'm expressing my surprise at how many core beliefs, practices, and attitudes of contemporary Judaism don't have obvious internal origins.
When I first started horseriding (figure out for yourself which part of the beast I rode) somone asked me why horses? why of all animals do we choose to ride on the horse?
Because he lets.
As the gemara says, לאו עכברא גנב אלא חורא גנב .
I think the larger problem is that the welfare is admistered at the state level rather than the communal. This distance coupled with the state's admiministers identity as others allows taking without feeling like a nebach.
That certainly makes a difference. But I'm not sure the process is any less corrupting just because it's become much more acceptable.
The Rambam also says that a person should always try to live in The Land Of Israel, even in a majority gentile city, than live outside The Land in a majority Jewish city, but everyone in Lakewood ignores that.
What a profound observation!!
All the people in lakewood are in lakewood?! is that really so?
(also I'm from lakewood currently in israel and so are half my neighbors and a quarter of my friends)
It's a result of living in a socialist, welfare state. It's very hard to argue that under a mandatory public health care system, going to the hospital when you are poor is taking gifts.
That's true. But you'd hope that an all-powerful industry devoted to teaching Torah at scale (i.e., the yeshiva world) would be capable of producing graduates who can distinguish between healthcare coverage and lifestyle entitlements.
I don't know how it works in Israel, but in the U.S. as I can see it one has to be wealthy (close to 300 k annually in Lakewood) or poor (to be eligible for government programs) to make it.
I, and many others, choose to be poor. My focus would be on raising a large family in a healthy Torah manner, rather than slaving my entire life paying taxes so others can live off of the government.
But outside Israel at least there are many wealthy Jews to balance it out (I think Lakewood mean income isn't lower than the national mean income when all factors are considered, and many of the wealthier American 'charedim' live out of Lakewood).
I do think the Diaspora charedim need to carry that over to Israel, both in terms of direct financial help (e.g. Keren Olam HaTorah) and in terms of teaching and enabling Israeli charedi to behave similar to Diaspora charedim.
I think it is beginning to happen. It starts as a tiny crawl, but eventually it will cause immense change.
I actually explored the "frum" income and social support numbers in the New York/New Jersey area four years ago:
https://darchecha.substack.com/p/the-mystery-of-jewish-economics
I would have to analyze that.
I just looked at the mean income, and tried to adjust it for age (the Lakewood median income is high at middle age and low at every other age, and there are very few middle age adults in Lakewood), the fact that almost all non-Jews in Lakewood are low income (living in low income housing) and some other factors.
That post wasn't about being "for" or "against" anyone. I was just trying to figure out what was happening using the best data I could find.
Ok, I just began reading it. But still, why did you focus only on families? I guess because you were focused on determining the financial health of frum families?
I noticed you emphasized family income over there.
But isn't that discrimanatory against us.
The fact that we marry at a young age, and a vast majority of adults over 25 are heads of family should not be counted against us. Just the opposite.
Another problem with these analyses is that they always count money spent on children as welfare to the parents, but never account for the potential economic contributions of the children themselves when they are older (and at least half of chareidim work, and the number is increasing). This penalizes communities with large families, making it look like they cost the system much more than they do.
I don't think that's true in this case, since we've already seen multiple generations of charedi children who grow up to be over represented among the unemployed and underemployed.
Barring disruptive changes, statistically, that's what this community is likely to produce.
Disruptive changes will happen. I think it's silly to think they won't, and this is one of the reasons why the report's extrapolations to the future are silly.
Change will certainly happen. But there's no way to know what it'll look like. And there's certainly no reason to use that as an excuse to abandon statistical trend analysis - which is a major foundation for economics research.
I've been hearing confident predictions about the imminent end of the kollel-for-all culture for at least 40 years now (I've even made a few myself). Every last one of them came up empty. From where I sit, the safest bet is still that the status quo rabbis and their aggressive followers will carry the day.
>I've been hearing confident predictions about the imminent end of the kollel-for-all culture for at least 40 years now (I've even made a few myself). Every last one of them came up empty.
Isn't that the greatest proof that change can happen?
The financial structure supporting the yeshiva world is under constant flux, only their values remain unchanging (though even that is far from true, but good enough for this conversation.)
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/gEShPto3F2aDdT3RY/sleepwalk-bias-self-defeating-predictions-and-existential
That's not my point. My point is that when we look at a community with a large number of children, all else equal, that community will look like it costs much more than it does. Because we are not counting any potential contributions from these children, we are only looking at the cost side. It's a profoundly anti-Torah way of looking at things.
Also, statistically, the community has been increasing its share of male employment significantly up until the war.
I understand. But, in this case, all things are not equal: we already have strong evidence of statistical trends which show that charedi children cost more than non-charedi children. If 100 charedi households present the state with a monthly net loss of NIS 1,031,800 (100x10,318), then 1,000 charedi households will cost the state NIS 10,318,000 each month.
There's no economy of scale here: you can't make up your losses on volume.
Now if, miraculously, significant numbers of charedi men *do* start working and rising within the economy, then all bets are off. But right now there are enough A-list rabbis fiercely fighting against it to make that an unlikely outcome.
A better analysis would just count how much adults cost the state vs how much they contribute. I'm sure chareidim would still be net receivers, but by much less. We shouldn't include a "children penalty" in our economic analyses, especially if we are drawing religious implications from them.
There's really no miracle needed. Chareidi men went from around 30-35% employment in the early 2000s to over 50% recently. All that's required for this "miracle" is to stop harassing them about the draft.
This is also relevant to the statistic about the amount of spending per capita. Most charedim are under 20. How about looking at the spending per adult over 20?
I would suspect that the overwhelming majority of total spending is done by people over 20. Which 18 year old charedi has enough of his own money to even afford a phone plan? So the household spending metric pretty much perfectly covers adult spending.
Is that how it works? When they say per capita, that means they are only looking at the people who do the actual spending, not the entire households?
I believe so.