Why do you think saying Tehillim for a sick person is not praying? I never imagined it otherwise, and I don't know anybody who imagined it otherwise. I literally don't know anybody who just thinks it's some sort of magical segulah.
Most of Tehilim isn't phrased in the language of tefila: it's a book of Torah that's focused more on David's description of his experiences and insights into the way God runs His world or his feelings at various crucial points in his life - and certainly not bakasha.
And a lot of Tehilim is highly complex: reciting even those sections which are tefilos without knowing what you're saying is certainly not tefila.
From what I've seen virtually everyone today thinks of saying Tehilim as a segula: why else would there be so many "special" chapters for various specific needs (especially when there's no obvious connection)?
Nobody thinks it's purely a segulah, I literally don't know anybody like that, and I grew up and am part of a yeshivish community. I challenge you to ask ten random yeshivish people if saying Tehillim is a way of davening. Your observation that Tehillim is not just bakashos is at best a question on why people use Tehillim as a form of prayer, you can't deny that this is what they are actually trying to do. And Tefilah is not just about bakashos, as you surely know.
Davening is complex also. Would you contend that reciting selichos, piyutim, or Hoshanos without understanding every word is not tefilah? I never heard of anything like that.
First of all, selichos, piyutim and hoshanos are NOT tefilos: they're designed to focus our minds appropriately to teshuva or the chag. Off hand, I don't remember seeing any bekashos in selichos besides begging God to accept our teshuva.
I can't read minds, so I certainly couldn't know what people are thinking, but can't imagine how anyone could interpret even thoughtful recitation of most sections Tehilim as tefila: for the most part, it completely lacks the structure of tefila - at least according to Rambam's definition:
אלא חיוב מצוה זו כך הוא שיהא אדם מתפלל ומתחנן בכל יום ומגיד שבחו של הקדוש ברוך הוא ואחר כך שואל צרכיו שהוא צריך להן בבקשה ובתחינה ואחר כך נותן שבח והודיה לה' על הטובה שהשפיע לו
Ok, if you contend that selichos, piyutim, and hoshanos are not tefilos, then you are going with a totally different definition of davening than 99.9% of people. Nobody thinks davening is only that which fulfills the formal halachic chiyuv according to the Rambam. They believe davening is talking to Hashem, praising Hashem, asking Hashem for things, saying you're sorry, etc. You can say most people are wrong, but they definitely think all those things are davening/Tefilah. And according to the conception of talking to Hashem, most of Tehillim is davening as much as selichos and piyutim are.
But the Rambam is careful in his definition of the specific mitzva of tefila. Other people can use their own definitions, but Rambam happens to be the only one I'm aware of.
And it seems to me that, like Tehilim, selichos and the others are only useful if we understand exactly what we're saying (and absorb the thoughts).
Whenever you see עצרת תפילה, what are they doing? Tehillim. Maybe later I'll bring you proofs from the Torah that these things are called tefillah as well. The Rambam is giving a halachic definition to fulfill the daily mitzvah of tefillah, he's not saying that other types of tefillah are not valuable.
"And it seems to me.."
You are basically saying that 99% of people are not doing anything valuable when reciting selichos, since they don't understand every single word. Impossible.
Tehillim is Torah, and there are discussions in the poskim when one could say it in places or times when Torah is prohibited, if one is saying it דרך תחינה ובקשה. I think at least for those who allow, we have a mekor that Tehillim can be said in a way of תחנה ובקשה.
You are a follower of Rav Hirsch, right? I just saw in Collected Writings II, Elul, he calls Selichos "prayer". (Yes I know it's a translation. I'm assuming it's accurate.)
That's possible, although if the tehilim are recited without the words sparking **new** insights or yiras shomayim, then I'm not sure there was any mitzva done - and therefore no zechus.
Also, I'm not aware of any mechanism where someone can transfer zechuyos between people.
Why do you think saying Tehillim for a sick person is not praying? I never imagined it otherwise, and I don't know anybody who imagined it otherwise. I literally don't know anybody who just thinks it's some sort of magical segulah.
Most of Tehilim isn't phrased in the language of tefila: it's a book of Torah that's focused more on David's description of his experiences and insights into the way God runs His world or his feelings at various crucial points in his life - and certainly not bakasha.
And a lot of Tehilim is highly complex: reciting even those sections which are tefilos without knowing what you're saying is certainly not tefila.
From what I've seen virtually everyone today thinks of saying Tehilim as a segula: why else would there be so many "special" chapters for various specific needs (especially when there's no obvious connection)?
Nobody thinks it's purely a segulah, I literally don't know anybody like that, and I grew up and am part of a yeshivish community. I challenge you to ask ten random yeshivish people if saying Tehillim is a way of davening. Your observation that Tehillim is not just bakashos is at best a question on why people use Tehillim as a form of prayer, you can't deny that this is what they are actually trying to do. And Tefilah is not just about bakashos, as you surely know.
Davening is complex also. Would you contend that reciting selichos, piyutim, or Hoshanos without understanding every word is not tefilah? I never heard of anything like that.
First of all, selichos, piyutim and hoshanos are NOT tefilos: they're designed to focus our minds appropriately to teshuva or the chag. Off hand, I don't remember seeing any bekashos in selichos besides begging God to accept our teshuva.
I can't read minds, so I certainly couldn't know what people are thinking, but can't imagine how anyone could interpret even thoughtful recitation of most sections Tehilim as tefila: for the most part, it completely lacks the structure of tefila - at least according to Rambam's definition:
אלא חיוב מצוה זו כך הוא שיהא אדם מתפלל ומתחנן בכל יום ומגיד שבחו של הקדוש ברוך הוא ואחר כך שואל צרכיו שהוא צריך להן בבקשה ובתחינה ואחר כך נותן שבח והודיה לה' על הטובה שהשפיע לו
Ok, if you contend that selichos, piyutim, and hoshanos are not tefilos, then you are going with a totally different definition of davening than 99.9% of people. Nobody thinks davening is only that which fulfills the formal halachic chiyuv according to the Rambam. They believe davening is talking to Hashem, praising Hashem, asking Hashem for things, saying you're sorry, etc. You can say most people are wrong, but they definitely think all those things are davening/Tefilah. And according to the conception of talking to Hashem, most of Tehillim is davening as much as selichos and piyutim are.
Talking to God is great - the more the better.
But the Rambam is careful in his definition of the specific mitzva of tefila. Other people can use their own definitions, but Rambam happens to be the only one I'm aware of.
And it seems to me that, like Tehilim, selichos and the others are only useful if we understand exactly what we're saying (and absorb the thoughts).
Whenever you see עצרת תפילה, what are they doing? Tehillim. Maybe later I'll bring you proofs from the Torah that these things are called tefillah as well. The Rambam is giving a halachic definition to fulfill the daily mitzvah of tefillah, he's not saying that other types of tefillah are not valuable.
"And it seems to me.."
You are basically saying that 99% of people are not doing anything valuable when reciting selichos, since they don't understand every single word. Impossible.
Tehillim is Torah, and there are discussions in the poskim when one could say it in places or times when Torah is prohibited, if one is saying it דרך תחינה ובקשה. I think at least for those who allow, we have a mekor that Tehillim can be said in a way of תחנה ובקשה.
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Berurah.584.2
https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Berurah.49.6
https://moreshet-maran.com/maagar-halachot/%d7%a1%d7%99%d7%9e%d7%9f-%d7%9b%d7%91-%d7%94%d7%90%d7%91%d7%9c-%d7%90%d7%a1%d7%95%d7%a8-%d7%91%d7%aa%d7%9c%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%93-%d7%aa%d7%95%d7%a8%d7%94/ see 6
ומכל מקום אם האבלים יושבים בטל ובאים לידי שיחה בטלה וקלות ראש והסחת דעת מהאבלות, יש להתיר להם לקרוא תהלים בדרך תפלה ובקשה והתעוררות לתשובה.
With Selichos, you probably already know those who allow saying it before Birchas HaTorah for that very reason.
You are a follower of Rav Hirsch, right? I just saw in Collected Writings II, Elul, he calls Selichos "prayer". (Yes I know it's a translation. I'm assuming it's accurate.)
That's possible, although if the tehilim are recited without the words sparking **new** insights or yiras shomayim, then I'm not sure there was any mitzva done - and therefore no zechus.
Also, I'm not aware of any mechanism where someone can transfer zechuyos between people.
While you're at it ,we ought to abolish as well those dancing postmodern selichos
If it's too much for many,let us ordain for them to just sit silently & contemplate
Chazon Ish read Josephus Tisha Bav afternoon (שכחתי המקור)
I wonder if that was Josephus or Yosiphun (a later "sanitized" version).
It was Yosiphun.