I don't read it as literally as you do: Imputing volition to a non-living object, and so on.
Here, take this analogy that you of all people can relate to. It's like saying:
"The hardware, the software, and the programmer are all one."
Isn't that true in some fundamental (but obviously figurative) sense?
But (at the risk of repeating myself) the whole question for me is basically moot, because the song is not even on my radar, ideologically speaking, coming as I do from the Frankfurt am Main tradition, which (de jure even if not always de facto) eschews the Kabbalah and its associations at almost all costs.
But then again, if the beis midrash/kollel of K'hal Adath Jeshurun has its own minyan on Simchas Torah (I don't think they do, but I really don't know), they are probably singing the song. Because they view the Yeshivishe tradition as greatly superior to their פרנקפורט דמיין tradition.
(I davened in Yeshivish minyanim for many years, so of course I am familar with the song and its melody.)
The quotation at the start of the article is the complete lyric to the popular Simchas Torah song. And believe me, it's accurate. The *similarity* with Ramchal's writings is not coincidental and forms the basis of the rest of the article.
>>>I suppose, through some generous use of poetic license, you could understand the words to mean that the Jewish nation, the Torah, and God are all unified through shared goals. Technically, that’s intellectually incoherent, since you can’t logically impute volition (goals) to a non-living object (Torah). But there’s nothing philosophically wrong with the approach.
I imagine it's something like this. Of course, it may be intellectually incoherent, but the whole point is that it is a song, which is an emotional and spiritual and experiential phenomenon, not an intellectual one.
>>>But what I find fascinating about all this is how deeply ingrained the modern kabbalistic mindset is specifically within the yeshiva and kollel world. Yeshiva world insiders have picked a side - and it’s not the side I used to think they’d pick.
I'm not sure this is correct. The general rule for the hoi polloi, at least the ones singing the song enthusiastically, is to daven to Hashem as He is defined simply in Mesillas Yesharim, which is the foremost work of Ramchal in the Yeshivishe world (https://www.sefaria.org/Mesillat_Yesharim.19.38?lang=he)
The general outlook seems to still be that anyone who gets involved in Kabbalah is playing a dangerous game. That some do indeed get burned through incorrect theology is obviously a consequence of that.
> "it may be intellectually incoherent, but the whole point is that it is a song, which is an emotional and spiritual and experiential phenomenon, not an intellectual one."
You're right, of course. But you also have to wonder who chose just this song and why. And what long-term impact those words are likely to have. The kids' song "Hashem is here Hashem is there..." was a clever way to push a very non-standard theology of immanence in a way that feels innocent. But I've known many kids whose adult understanding of God was subtly skewed by it.
> "The general outlook seems to still be that anyone who gets involved in Kabbalah is playing a dangerous game."
I have no statistical evidence for this, but I've been hearing different noises from inside the yeshiva world for the past decade or so. I personally know senior roshei yeshiva deeply involved in the limud and I keep running into 30-somethings who identify themselves as experts in Ramchal (and they're not talking about Mesilas Yesharim).
I can't imagine it was a conscious choice, seems to be more organic. But who knows?
If kids grow up without their understanding maturing, that's a black mark against the education system, but not against the culture of this song.
On Ramchal, perhaps amongst the intellectuals, but amongst the hamon am, the ones who love this song - seems unlikely. Even the more approachable works like Daas Tevunos and Derech Hashem are mostly unknown.
The early days of the Anglo litvish & ashkenazi leadershio would have been less tollerent of this kind of thing. I mean at least artscoll would point it out
For example what we sing every week in שלום עליכם. We basically pray to angels. Artscoll points out this issue and says R'yakov Emden reluctantly said just the first line.
It was part of my school's chumash presentation. I'm not sure if I thought about it at the time, I was only eight after all, but I came to think it was just a song about our favorite things, Klal Yisrael, the Torah, and God-who-is-one, analogous to Echad Mi Yodeah. I only realized the...weird interpretation years later between wherever it's quoted in the commentary of the Stone Chumash and my sister's chumash presentation.
I don't read it as literally as you do: Imputing volition to a non-living object, and so on.
Here, take this analogy that you of all people can relate to. It's like saying:
"The hardware, the software, and the programmer are all one."
Isn't that true in some fundamental (but obviously figurative) sense?
But (at the risk of repeating myself) the whole question for me is basically moot, because the song is not even on my radar, ideologically speaking, coming as I do from the Frankfurt am Main tradition, which (de jure even if not always de facto) eschews the Kabbalah and its associations at almost all costs.
But then again, if the beis midrash/kollel of K'hal Adath Jeshurun has its own minyan on Simchas Torah (I don't think they do, but I really don't know), they are probably singing the song. Because they view the Yeshivishe tradition as greatly superior to their פרנקפורט דמיין tradition.
(I davened in Yeshivish minyanim for many years, so of course I am familar with the song and its melody.)
You've quoted it backwards. It's Hashem first, etc. And the source is the Ramchal. https://tora-forum.co.il/threads/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%90-%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9A-%D7%94%D7%95%D7%90-%D7%95%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA%D7%90-%D7%95%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C-%D7%97%D7%93-%D7%94%D7%95%D7%90-%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A8.1239/
The quotation at the start of the article is the complete lyric to the popular Simchas Torah song. And believe me, it's accurate. The *similarity* with Ramchal's writings is not coincidental and forms the basis of the rest of the article.
Ah, sorry missed the end of your post somehow. That said, the song itself is backwards
>>>I suppose, through some generous use of poetic license, you could understand the words to mean that the Jewish nation, the Torah, and God are all unified through shared goals. Technically, that’s intellectually incoherent, since you can’t logically impute volition (goals) to a non-living object (Torah). But there’s nothing philosophically wrong with the approach.
I imagine it's something like this. Of course, it may be intellectually incoherent, but the whole point is that it is a song, which is an emotional and spiritual and experiential phenomenon, not an intellectual one.
>>>But what I find fascinating about all this is how deeply ingrained the modern kabbalistic mindset is specifically within the yeshiva and kollel world. Yeshiva world insiders have picked a side - and it’s not the side I used to think they’d pick.
I'm not sure this is correct. The general rule for the hoi polloi, at least the ones singing the song enthusiastically, is to daven to Hashem as He is defined simply in Mesillas Yesharim, which is the foremost work of Ramchal in the Yeshivishe world (https://www.sefaria.org/Mesillat_Yesharim.19.38?lang=he)
The general outlook seems to still be that anyone who gets involved in Kabbalah is playing a dangerous game. That some do indeed get burned through incorrect theology is obviously a consequence of that.
> "it may be intellectually incoherent, but the whole point is that it is a song, which is an emotional and spiritual and experiential phenomenon, not an intellectual one."
You're right, of course. But you also have to wonder who chose just this song and why. And what long-term impact those words are likely to have. The kids' song "Hashem is here Hashem is there..." was a clever way to push a very non-standard theology of immanence in a way that feels innocent. But I've known many kids whose adult understanding of God was subtly skewed by it.
> "The general outlook seems to still be that anyone who gets involved in Kabbalah is playing a dangerous game."
I have no statistical evidence for this, but I've been hearing different noises from inside the yeshiva world for the past decade or so. I personally know senior roshei yeshiva deeply involved in the limud and I keep running into 30-somethings who identify themselves as experts in Ramchal (and they're not talking about Mesilas Yesharim).
I can't imagine it was a conscious choice, seems to be more organic. But who knows?
If kids grow up without their understanding maturing, that's a black mark against the education system, but not against the culture of this song.
On Ramchal, perhaps amongst the intellectuals, but amongst the hamon am, the ones who love this song - seems unlikely. Even the more approachable works like Daas Tevunos and Derech Hashem are mostly unknown.
The early days of the Anglo litvish & ashkenazi leadershio would have been less tollerent of this kind of thing. I mean at least artscoll would point it out
For example what we sing every week in שלום עליכם. We basically pray to angels. Artscoll points out this issue and says R'yakov Emden reluctantly said just the first line.
It was part of my school's chumash presentation. I'm not sure if I thought about it at the time, I was only eight after all, but I came to think it was just a song about our favorite things, Klal Yisrael, the Torah, and God-who-is-one, analogous to Echad Mi Yodeah. I only realized the...weird interpretation years later between wherever it's quoted in the commentary of the Stone Chumash and my sister's chumash presentation.