Public support of Torah institutions is a mitzvah derabbanan, at least. But I agree that people certainly do have interesting delusions.
"Pulling yourself up by the boot-straps" is a joke; we all need other people to accomplish anything.
Receiving tzedakah might be "embarrassing" because a person takes pride in being able to take care of themselves. But that doesn't compare to the shame heaped upon "welfare queens" and "lay-abouts" by American society. I was talking to a friend one time about levels of tzedakah. The highest, of course, is finding them a job, he said. "If you're saying that as a Jew, the way the Rambam meant it, absolutely," I said. "If you're saying it as a Republican, absolutely not." And he conceded.
Even so, it's demonstrably not a "war on Torah" because there has never been a Supreme Court ruling that directly limits the amount of Torah any Israeli is permitted to learn. To my memory at least, it's **always** been about either the legal status of draft exemptions in the context of inequality before the law and about funding.
Sure, there's no shortage of individuals on both sides who have weaponized the legal issues for political reasons. And I suppose there might be leftists who - deep down - hate it when they see Jews learning Torah. But I've never seen a shred of direct evidence to prove it.
I appreciate the distinction you're making. But I still feel that, while "war on Torah" may not strictly speaking be all that incoherent when used as a metaphor, it cheapens discourse and invites terrible behavior (like diaper throwing and highway blocking). It's also irresponsible because many of the people who use that language should be aware of the consequences. And, as a community, we should develop a lot more emotional toughness when it comes to engaging with people who don't see everything quite the way we do.
Also, the scope and intensity of the anti-Torah policies and nastiness of the 1950s are long gone now. Things are far from perfect, but it's a different world.
I wonder if the change will come slowly or as a sudden "preference cascade" where thousands of yungeleit will feel free to talk about how they've been wanting change for years. I obviously have no clue, but I would love to be able to peer just a few years into the future.
It's definitely middas chassidus and not halacha. But I think the attitude is pretty deeply entrenched in mainstream Jewish thought. (עבד לוה לאיש מלוה and so on.)
That's true. But it's not a binary choice, but a sliding scale: we're far better off minimizing our dependence **wherever possible.** The weaker our cultural memory of the "שונא מתנות יחיה" mindset, the harder it will be to orient ourselves properly to the ideal.
And I'm not convinced the Tashbetz is really arguing against the Rambam who, after all, did write: לא לשבט לוי בלבד...
I'm not quite 100% sure, but I think that's the simplest reading of the language on the posters etc. And, when you consider that the government only cut funding for the proportion of students of draft age (there are around 65,000 of them) the number also makes sense.
But it would be great if someone could confirm one way or the other.
> "These are not mutually exclusive. The Canadian Govt (especially in Quebec) gives a lot of social support to Chareidi families, and at the same time does it best to secularise them, especially via the education system. Same with the NY State govt."
At most, that might be characterized as a **culture war**. But the thing about culture wars is that, unlike the Nazis' war on the Jews, culture wars tend to be a lot less violent and bi-directional: both sides engage in the "war" with equal enthusiasm, bad faith, and bad middos. There may be exceptions where it's clear who the aggressor and victims are, but the leftist vs. charadi brawl is not among them.
And Quebec isn't a great example, because it provides near-complete funding for yeshivas so no frum kid needs to go to public schools - or, for the most part, even learn to speak French.
> "both of which allow for the current system of mass learners relying on others for parnassah."
The practice is certainly permitted. But, from a mussar perspective, it's also a huge בדיעבד.
Actually, the Tashbetz himself (just a few lines down) writes that the way of talmidai chachamim is to greatly prefer NOT receiving support:
זהו חיוב הצבור. אמנם החכמי' והתלמידים אם נהגו סלסול בעצמם שלא ליטול ושיתפרנסו מיגיע כפם או בדוחק יש להם שכר טוב בעמלם וחסידות הוא להם ומוטב הוא להם שיבטלו קצת עתים מלקיים והגית בו יומם ולילה מלסמוך על הצבור במזונותם
Public support of Torah institutions is a mitzvah derabbanan, at least. But I agree that people certainly do have interesting delusions.
"Pulling yourself up by the boot-straps" is a joke; we all need other people to accomplish anything.
Receiving tzedakah might be "embarrassing" because a person takes pride in being able to take care of themselves. But that doesn't compare to the shame heaped upon "welfare queens" and "lay-abouts" by American society. I was talking to a friend one time about levels of tzedakah. The highest, of course, is finding them a job, he said. "If you're saying that as a Jew, the way the Rambam meant it, absolutely," I said. "If you're saying it as a Republican, absolutely not." And he conceded.
Even so, it's demonstrably not a "war on Torah" because there has never been a Supreme Court ruling that directly limits the amount of Torah any Israeli is permitted to learn. To my memory at least, it's **always** been about either the legal status of draft exemptions in the context of inequality before the law and about funding.
Sure, there's no shortage of individuals on both sides who have weaponized the legal issues for political reasons. And I suppose there might be leftists who - deep down - hate it when they see Jews learning Torah. But I've never seen a shred of direct evidence to prove it.
I appreciate the distinction you're making. But I still feel that, while "war on Torah" may not strictly speaking be all that incoherent when used as a metaphor, it cheapens discourse and invites terrible behavior (like diaper throwing and highway blocking). It's also irresponsible because many of the people who use that language should be aware of the consequences. And, as a community, we should develop a lot more emotional toughness when it comes to engaging with people who don't see everything quite the way we do.
Also, the scope and intensity of the anti-Torah policies and nastiness of the 1950s are long gone now. Things are far from perfect, but it's a different world.
I wonder if the change will come slowly or as a sudden "preference cascade" where thousands of yungeleit will feel free to talk about how they've been wanting change for years. I obviously have no clue, but I would love to be able to peer just a few years into the future.
It's definitely middas chassidus and not halacha. But I think the attitude is pretty deeply entrenched in mainstream Jewish thought. (עבד לוה לאיש מלוה and so on.)
That's true. But it's not a binary choice, but a sliding scale: we're far better off minimizing our dependence **wherever possible.** The weaker our cultural memory of the "שונא מתנות יחיה" mindset, the harder it will be to orient ourselves properly to the ideal.
And I'm not convinced the Tashbetz is really arguing against the Rambam who, after all, did write: לא לשבט לוי בלבד...
I'm not quite 100% sure, but I think that's the simplest reading of the language on the posters etc. And, when you consider that the government only cut funding for the proportion of students of draft age (there are around 65,000 of them) the number also makes sense.
But it would be great if someone could confirm one way or the other.
> "These are not mutually exclusive. The Canadian Govt (especially in Quebec) gives a lot of social support to Chareidi families, and at the same time does it best to secularise them, especially via the education system. Same with the NY State govt."
At most, that might be characterized as a **culture war**. But the thing about culture wars is that, unlike the Nazis' war on the Jews, culture wars tend to be a lot less violent and bi-directional: both sides engage in the "war" with equal enthusiasm, bad faith, and bad middos. There may be exceptions where it's clear who the aggressor and victims are, but the leftist vs. charadi brawl is not among them.
And Quebec isn't a great example, because it provides near-complete funding for yeshivas so no frum kid needs to go to public schools - or, for the most part, even learn to speak French.
> "both of which allow for the current system of mass learners relying on others for parnassah."
The practice is certainly permitted. But, from a mussar perspective, it's also a huge בדיעבד.
Actually, the Tashbetz himself (just a few lines down) writes that the way of talmidai chachamim is to greatly prefer NOT receiving support:
זהו חיוב הצבור. אמנם החכמי' והתלמידים אם נהגו סלסול בעצמם שלא ליטול ושיתפרנסו מיגיע כפם או בדוחק יש להם שכר טוב בעמלם וחסידות הוא להם ומוטב הוא להם שיבטלו קצת עתים מלקיים והגית בו יומם ולילה מלסמוך על הצבור במזונותם